The mechanics of quicksand and all that

[PM2K]

Hello all.

I thought I'd try something a little different, with your indulgence... having read certain topics popping up in other threads, I thought maybe I'd lump some of the ideas together in one thread and see what comes of it.

What I'm interested in is - as the thread's title suggests - the actual mechanics at work here in quicksand scenes, as in, how do the ladies get in there in the first place, and any feasibility issues which may rise. I suppose this would work better in a chat room or something, but my typing skills aren't able to keep up, so I thought I'd try it here. Allows for more thought and wordiness as required.

This isn't about story lines, BTW... just the physical act and how it plays out.

For example... how does our heroine/victim get there?
There are fans for her running straight in, which works dramatically if she is being chased into it, but feasibility wise, it is a hard thing to do. Safety issues, such as the risk of our actress getting hurt trying to run through a natural setting, plus entering the pit, are big concerns. The way would have to be clear, the pit's entry point well managed, etc....

The fall in/flopping in works better, again for a chase scene, when you have a lady forced to slow down due to the thickness of the forest she is fighting through, and in trying to get free, trips/falls into the pit. There's still the issue of an actress' comfort level, though, but it seems more workable and relatively safe to shoot for the actress....

Slowly wading in is by far the safest way to go, and works well for the most part. For me, the least believable part is having her get stuck just ankle deep and being trapped - she deserves to sink if she can't get out of an inch of mud is my usual reaction... A knee deep plunge works the best for me in that case, and she seems to be genuinely trapped. A slow sink commences from there. A sudden drop chest deep works really well for bogs, as that is to be expected, and she is also suitably trapped.

Extrication... another area.
Using a vine/branch/rope to escape, that works well. Having it snap and the victim end up right back in it is even better.
In fiction... my fav scene is the victim clambering out vertically on a vine, only to have it snap and she plunges back in. I know that is likely only going to happen in the comics or animation - the logistics/safety factors seem too difficult to resolve to me. Having this play out horizontally seems far more doable, if having less of an impact, so to speak...

The use of a vertical vine as a means of clinging to, but not yet being able to escape would work well (as in Pete Bogg's Fight without a Winner) so there's a way that could work. Use of branches also works well - witness Nessie's use of an existing branch in some of her latest scenes to see how well that works.

Anyway, that's sort of what I'm trying to spark here... general ideas of cool scenes we like to see, stripped to the bones, plus comments on if or if not they are feasible. All in the name of continuing to polish what we all know and love.

[jadokast98]

Slowly wading in is by far the safest way to go, and works well for the most part. For me, the least believable part is having her get stuck just ankle deep and being trapped - she deserves to sink if she can't get out of an inch of mud is my usual reaction... A knee deep plunge works the best for me in that case, and she seems to be genuinely trapped. A slow sink commences from there. A sudden drop chest deep works really well for bogs, as that is to be expected, and she is also suitably trapped.

Since High Heel Stiletto shoes are my "thing", this the part where I would enjoy the most. The old sand pits were great, and Arch Enemy's was pretty cool(imho). The heels would actually cause the situation and make it worse. If, in the course of her struggling she can move her legs around that would be a fine thing. Pulling her leg almost out, and still not bee able to completely would be even better!

[water_bug_62208]

I'm not into the "running into the quicksand/deep mud scene." Far to fast and haphazard.

I prefer the slow walk and trudge to eventiually become stuck scenarion, as beautifully performed by Kristine Lynn in her "White Bra And Panty Sink" in Young Woman, Deep Mud.

Depending on the composition of the mud (such as very fine coastal sediment and silt forming a thick, gluey mud), the "getting stuck ankle-deep" scenario isn't that too far fetched. Based on one true story that's out there, a gal sinking a foot in depth into coastal marsh mud does result in an almost instant "stuck fast" situation. A foot deep into the mud would be (depending on the height of the lady) around shin to calf-deep, which are believable depths for a gal to get stuck in. Yes, footwear, or the lack thereof, could play a role. In the example I note, the gal is wearing sneakers, so the presence of footwear securely fasten to the gal's feet would contribute to her being stuck.

I'm a fan of the natural suction (vacuum or partial vacuum for those who insist on being scientifically correct) and the natural stickiness (that thick clay and/or sediment and silt provides) holding the damsel fast as it's captive, and her struggling and her weight/body density sinking her deeper. I'm also a fan of the mud stretching and gripping the gal's feel and legs as she struggles. This action can naturally occur as seen in "ArchEnemy's" earlier videos with Danielle in that one particular quarry pit where, when the mire is exposed and is somewhat not too water-logged, is thick enough to mound up as she tries lifting her feet out.

Based on my own experience in mud and watching what happens to Quicksand Damesls In Destress when they're stuck and sinking in natural situations, the natural actions of the mud's suction/vacuum and tenacity add so much at the prevention of the damsel's escape. Once she's secured and trapped, the sinking portion becomes far more exciting and believeable.

And, it's that suction and tenacity that makes escape of the Damsel In Distress that much more difficult. There are true accounts of deeply sunken maidens requiring several minutes to an hour or so to be freed when rescue personnel are present.

The closest Quicksand Video to what I described (as far as I know) is Kristine Lynn's "White Bra And Panty Scene." My understanding is that she was indeed stuck, especially given the thickness of the mud, and that she needed help getting out of that mess. That scene remains a classic of a true, natural Quicksand Scene featuring deep, thick, sticky mud filled with all the natural mechanics that Nature has to offer.

Good thread!

[Duncan Edwards]

... My understanding is that she was indeed stuck, especially given the thickness of the mud, and that she needed help getting out of that mess. That scene remains a classic of a true, natural Quicksand Scene featuring deep, thick, sticky mud filled with all the natural mechanics that Nature has to offer.

Good thread!

She was stuck, I was stuck, Droopy was stuck. I kept getting re-stuck. Getting out of there was a real fight for all involved.

[Fred588]

On getting in.

The actual mechanics of getting in pretty clearly depend on the kind of mud, its density, its viscosity, and the contour of the container (that is, the pit). Within the limits of these variables, anything and nothing may be possible. With the right conditions, we (Studio 588) have done feet first plunge entries, running fall entries, stuck at ankle to knee depth followed by slide-in entries, apparent fall from a height entries, backwards fall-in entries, and suspended by a vine entries. In one case we did a feet-first plunge to all the way under entry. About the only kind of entry I can think of we have not done, for safety reasons, is a head first dive and a knee-drop. As for safety, the key is to know the pit and the capabilities of the actress.

On getting out.

I think the limiting factor here is mainly the capabilities of the actress and the available props. The vertical climb, all the way out, using a vine would require some pretty impressive strength even if the "vine" was a 2 inch-diameter rope. I expect a smaller rope would be pretty much impossible for any but the most athletic. Also, that vine wouold have to be supported by something. A partial climb out vertically would be considerably easier but would still require some impressive arm strength. Also, if the actress's hands or the vine were to get muddy, particularly with clay, I'd expect the climb to be impossible.

[PM2K]

On getting in.
The actual mechanics of getting in pretty clearly depend on the kind of mud, its density, its viscosity, and the contour of the container (that is, the pit). Within the limits of these variables, anything and nothing may be possible. With the right conditions, we (Studio 588) have done feet first plunge entries, running fall entries, stuck at ankle to knee depth followed by slide-in entries, apparent fall from a height entries, backwards fall-in entries, and suspended by a vine entries. In one case we did a feet-first plunge to all the way under entry. About the only kind of entry I can think of we have not done, for safety reasons, is a head first dive and a knee-drop. As for safety, the key is to know the pit and the capabilities of the actress.

That's what I thought, and part of the reason I wanted to get this thread rolling. I noticed from time to time folks tossing ideas around, which, while they could work well on paper, aren't practical or are dangerous to try and do in real life. I almost get the impression they may lack experience in how mud etc. actually behaves, and the circumstances around it.

A head first dive may be done at a cork set, as long as one was absolutely sure of the depth... but I'd still be hesitant to try it. I'm not a huge fan of the concept either (with some exceptions) because I like to see the eyes and face of the actress for as long as possible...

(BTW - and not to diss any of the other excellent work being done by others, I remain impressed by the variety of work you've done, Fred...)

On getting out.
I think the limiting factor here is mainly the capabilities of the actress and the available props. The vertical climb, all the way out, using a vine would require some pretty impressive strength even if the "vine" was a 2 inch-diameter rope. I expect a smaller rope would be pretty much impossible for any but the most athletic. Also, that vine would have to be supported by something. A partial climb out vertically would be considerably easier but would still require some impressive arm strength. Also, if the actress's hands or the vine were to get muddy, particularly with clay, I'd expect the climb to be impossible.

Yes, I can imagine that... I can see being able to use that later fact, of the slipperiness of the mud preventing a good grip on the rope/vine, to one's advantage in a scene, as in, she has the vine but can't escape for that reason, adding to the drama of a scene in a realistic way. Just a thought...

[Nessie]

Use of branches also works well - witness Nessie's use of an existing branch in some of her latest scenes to see how well that works.

That branch that appeared this year at Poison Sumac Bog was truly a mixed blessing.

It works out really well sometimes. You can hang on it and bounce on it. I got "Double Exposure" out of that...and that clip did very well. It really looks good onscreen when it's swaying wildly around.

The trick is, when you "accidentally" let go, and, of course, fall right into the quicksand, it needs to look like it sprang right out of reach. It does spring up some by itself, but to make sure, I would sink down a bit immediately (not too hard to do in that mudpit), and then, when I reached for it, I could make it seem like it's "just an inch too far away"!

The flip side is that I can't exactly remove the branch either, and it isn't, in all cases, feasible to explain precisely why I don't grab onto it.

Fortunately Poison Sumac Bog does look bigger onscreen than it actually is. I can often just crop out the branch when I don't want it.

It remains to be seen what Poison Sumac Bog will be like this year. I've now used it for three years and it has been a bit different-looking every time!

I have no mudpits at all where you can run in. The mud itself likely wouldn't hurt you but the surrounding terrain isn't very friendly.

I personally have an aversion to falling in from any kind of height, but that's just me...I ain't as young as I used to be! In the environments I have, more of a flopping-in works pretty well. In the shoot I did with Mestiza, her character was just too stubborn to admit that my character could possibly be right, and she walked right into the quicksand mostly because she refused to turn around and backtrack.

Then my character got guilt pangs and went looking for her...of course we can't JUST GIVE UP when we're trying to do the right thing, so...flop!

Nessie

[stefani_tg]

Hello all.
For example... how does our heroine/victim get there?
There are fans for her running straight in, which works dramatically if she is being chased into it, but feasibility wise, it is a hard thing to do. Safety issues, such as the risk of our actress getting hurt trying to run through a natural setting, plus entering the pit, are big concerns. The way would have to be clear, the pit's entry point well managed, etc....

i'd luv to see a running or at least walking unawares into quicksand scene. theres a place for slow sink n a place for real drama. how many great qs scenes in film n tv have been chase scenes. mebbe we need somthing in the mid where a gal runs into qs but sinks up to her thighs or waist n the rest is a slow dramatic struggle. aint seen enough struggling to churn up the mpv or matural peat bogs much. sensual n slow is good but lets have some terror n extreme struggling evry now n then!

ps how bouts a reenactment of the missed oppotunity from end of hound of the baskervilles 1959 where the gal hops a path cross the bogs but misses her step? you cud lay areas of peat round the real bog so we dont knows where it is until PLOP! n then let the terror begins!

[Fred588]

There are plenty of scenes with active struggling in both peat and clay.

One characteristic of performing and filming this kind of action is a requirement for rest breaks. Struggling in a viscous liquid is extremely hard work close to being on par with playing water polo. [Trust me on that, I played water polo in college.] This means far more frequent cuts between cameras to cover the rest periods.

Hello all.
For example... how does our heroine/victim get there?
There are fans for her running straight in, which works dramatically if she is being chased into it, but feasibility wise, it is a hard thing to do. Safety issues, such as the risk of our actress getting hurt trying to run through a natural setting, plus entering the pit, are big concerns. The way would have to be clear, the pit's entry point well managed, etc....

i'd luv to see a running or at least walking unawares into quicksand scene. theres a place for slow sink n a place for real drama. how many great qs scenes in film n tv have been chase scenes. mebbe we need somthing in the mid where a gal runs into qs but sinks up to her thighs or waist n the rest is a slow dramatic struggle. aint seen enough struggling to churn up the mpv or matural peat bogs much. sensual n slow is good but lets have some terror n extreme struggling evry now n then!

ps how bouts a reenactment of the missed oppotunity from end of hound of the baskervilles 1959 where the gal hops a path cross the bogs but misses her step? you cud lay areas of peat round the real bog so we dont knows where it is until PLOP! n then let the terror begins!

[Duncan Edwards]

I can't offer too much except to say that one goal I've always entertained is to call a girl from fifty, a hundred, yards away and just tell her to get across the huge muddy expanse that is between us. It might be knee deep in places and bottomless in others just like a real swamp. After that it's up to nature as to how she gets in, and out, and in again and again. No two times the same way because sometimes she wins the struggle with relative ease and other times she doesn't. Pull the lever, watch the wheels spin, see who wins.

With any luck that is how its going to happen.