Quicksand Fans

Criticism of creative work is a very touchy thing; perhaps the most sensitive of all for a community such as ours. The following is an attempt at expressing my opinion regarding this.

It is my job to provide criticism of other people's work, although that, obviously, is limited to a particular area of expertise. Within that area of expertise, that expertise means I can often simply express a judgement (its good, or, its terrible) without going further and have my opinion accepted and not cause resentment. The producer of the work didn't just say he or she was open to comments, he or she is paying me for an opinion. While my plain opinion is likely to be accepted, however, it is essentially useless in that form. When someone asks for a piece of work to be reviewed they are (usually) asking for help in getting better. "Its good" and "Its terrible" provide absolutely no information about what is good (and should be repeated or built upon in the future) or what is terrible (and should be corrected in the future). My comment might provide some reinforcement of the desire to produce another work, or to not, but it won't contribute in the least to any changes in quality. What the producer of the work needs, or presumably desires, is information. "Its poorly written because it contains incomplete sentences," or "The highlights in the two character's eyes are not quite consistent." Also, I have found over the years that my comments are much more useful when they reference what is right rather than what is wrong, and when they do refer to what is wrong the comments a linked to some coaching about how to fix it.

I think some additional points need to be made for situations where the person providing the criticism is either not an expert or is not known to be an expert. I am certainly in the not an expert category when it comes to things like art work, story writing, and most of the things we produce in this community. When it comes to artwork, in fact, I am more in the category of "clueless novice." Here, it is much more important for me, if I take on the role of critic, to understand the context in which my comments will be heard. If a recognize expert says something is not very good then it is probable that the something is not very good [Although an appalling amount of brilliant work is only recognized as such decades later] but if a non expert or unrecognized expert says the same thing then it is only possible that the something is not very good. It is also possible that the critic is simply being a windbag. Its also possible that the critic is simply engaging in baiting tactics or trying to start a flame war. No one reading the critique knows for sure what is going on. In any case, the simple statement of judgement accomplishes nothing constructive and it has the simultaneous potential to do harm.

I won't be attempting much on the way of actual critiques around here.

It's ridiculous to hold an adult fetish forum to the same standards to which I would hold a graphic designer who is producing an ad for my business. If I thought the ad was sloppy, I certainly would offer criticism since I am paying for the artist's time and efforts, plus I hope to recoup my investment after the ad is published -- so a bang-up powerfully graphic ad counts plenty.

But here, if I do not like an artwork, a fake, a story or a photo, I simply move on; nothing is to be gained by being a critic. In fact, I'm sure that I'm ahead of the game around here by NOT taking the duty of upholding the quality of quicksand creativity to a higher standard upon myself.

And it's worth noting that the reason why I may move on may not be a lack of excellence in the work. It may just be the subject matter. For instance: No matter how well-done it is, anybody ever notice that I rarely respond to any item featuring bondage, and never at all to anything with heavy bondage or extremely grim themes?

This does not constitute criticism of the piece or even a moral judgment on the fantasies of the artist. It's just me...I'm not spending my time on things that I find unpleasant.

I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about this. Hey. Too many men won't respond to anything featuring a man in quicksand no matter how much I say I like to see a good guy struggling in the mire! Why? The subject makes them uncomfortable!

I believe that's okay. It's all right to not like everything. What's not all right is to make a stink about it every time you see a thing you don't like even though you know it's not hurting anyone really, and even though you also know that it will always be here.

Way too many times somebody will ask for feedback and then they won't like what they hear when they get it. So, I guess that I, myself, just don't believe people when they ask any more anyway. The first time they ask, that is.

I'll just hang out, and I'll let some other critique-giver be the guinea pig. If the artist spazzes out all over the guinea pig, I'm gone. You'll never hear a word from me, pally! But if the artist listens, says thank you, and I see suggestions worked on or even incorporated into a later effort...hey, that artist is okay! I could pipe up next time!

I prefer giving constructive criticism privately rather than on a forum. I have done this a few times for people. It's nice when you see your points taken and used. It's not a good idea to get off too much on this, though. My art degree does NOT make me Muddy Da Vinci. I can be wrong sometimes and anyway...well, we'll address the issue of subjectivity in a bit here.

Much of the criticism given to quicksand stuff is actually no good for the technical improvement of anything at all.

However, if you're a quicksand video producer, you could tap into it for use in marketing strategies.

"What a waste! They sank the guy!" "It would be better if she was a redhead!" "She's wearing too many clothes! Lose the skirt and dress her in a bikini!" "Can you try this next with a hot blonde in a latex catsuit?" "Are your models going to do any nudity in the future?"

When I speak up, I try to emphasize what that I thought worked well about a piece, or something that gave me a good feeling when I looked at it. I'm not lying about any of that, either. However, it would also be true that I often pass by things that I see as technical flaws without mentioning them.

That probably makes my feedback less useful. I guess, though, that I don't want to be a renowned critic anyway if it means I'll be fielding flame wars.

It is not my place to crusade for the betterment of quicksand art. There is something to be said for just letting other people have their fun. A place like this is created for pleasure. Why gunk it up with stuff that's no fun at all...like...getting into an argument about whether something's good?

What's "good" anyway? I'm always sure I know it when I see it but someone else may disagree. And just because a piece is not the product of a professional with years of expertise does not mean that there is no pleasure to be had by creating it and it doesn't mean it cannot still have beauty.

It is not my place to decide what's appropriate material, or "good enough material", for Quicksand Fans. That is for the moderators to decide.

And while you're sitting there telling yourself you just GOT to pipe up and complain that this "isn't good enough to be here..."

Remember Marcel Duchamp.

http://artintelligence.net/review/?p=29#more-29

Or maybe you'd rather forget.

Want my opinion on Mr. Duchamp?

Sure. Here it is...he's dead. He can't argue with me.

I think he either copped out (was too lazy to make anything himself) or, perhaps, he just got a cheap thrill out of submitting this object as an art object. But to this day, others see something profound.

All art, in any form, is intrinsically subjective. What this means is that while 2 + 2 never = anything but 4, it remains impossible to get a universal consensus on what good art is, or even what art is at all. One Quicksander's junk is another's treasure, and yeah, for some folks, if she ain't a redhead, it ain't art no matter how real it looks.

I learned most of this in art school, by the way. My old art teachers could drive you right under the bog. I totally don't understand why some of my teachers thought that some of that stuff they were showing me was "art".

Nessie

Nessie - I agree with your philosophy. I opt to simply not post if I don't have at least one positive thing to say. Sometimes, a non-post is simply a matter of non-interest. Nor do I try to gratuitously post false positives. Of course, since I lurked for years on other forums until this one, I hardly have the standing to be much of a critic, anyway. Your posts are usually among the most complete, honest, well-written, and thoughtful of any on the various forums I have read. And you possess an art talent (that I can simply not approach) in addition to your writing ability.

Fred - you are a very positive influence on this and previous forums. Your "you be the writer" threads encourage positive creative input. I'm trying to work up enough of a good idea to respond. I have appreciated your responses to my few posts so far on this forum.

- jack

jack c wrote:And you possess an art talent (that I can simply not approach) in addition to your writing ability.

Thank you! I've not had much time lately to draw or write anything new, although hopefully when Life gets less hectic, I'll manage to do something creative. My most personal take on criticism, though, is that unsolicited criticism says to me that the critic expects me to go back into my work to change it.

My drawings tend to take around four hours. My stories, oh, I don't know, depends on how long they are, but I read them thoroughly before I post them. I don't post anything until I consider it finished. By then I am tired of looking at it...often extremely tired of looking at it. Any unsolicted suggestions for change are generally met with...

Nothing.

Nessie

Like Fred, my professional life pays me to offer criticism. It's my job, and my area of expertise is video production. And, yes, I am damned good at it! Do I apply that here? I really, really try not to! I have found that when folks post something followed by a "whadda ya think?" that they really don't mean it.

Hey, I understand! I know the feeling of having labored long on a project, only to have someone systematically deconstruct the whole thing. It's painful. And who wants pain from the giving of a gift?

That's really what happens here. Everything that appears here (or any other free forum) is a gift. It's a gift to me, from someone I probably don't know. So of course I love it! Some of these gifts come with ulterior motives. "Here's a free gift, but there's so much more you could pay for!" Again, for what I am given, I am thankful. And I do understand having to pay the bills!

The things I pay for, though, make me wonder about my role. Even in my cherished favorite quicksand scenes, I see room for technical improvement. I see things I would dock points for were they turned in as a class project. I see things that bother me. Maybe here, such criticism as I could offer would be more appropriate. Still, I stay silent. After all, I do enjoy the product, and would MUCH rather encourage the production of more than discourage existing efforts.

And I have seen so much growth from so many people! And, guess what? It happened without a peep from me!

No, I'll keep my professional eye trained where it's paid to be.

I look at art (whether it be a drawing, a song, a story, a photograph, a manipulation, or music) as a form of self-expression. It's the person... the artist... trying to express that which is within him or her, and they try to express that something in the best way they can. Thus, who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to criticize that person's attempt or ability to express their internal feelings or desires.

I accept people's form of art for what it is and appreciate the effort, especially when that person is willing to share that art with us. People don't post their artwork on this forum because they have to... they do it because they want to, and the very least we could do is appreciate that gesture.

I concur with the above members... if I don't comment on art presented on this forum, it's probably because it's just not my thing and I move on. If I like it, I'll let you know. Neither I, nor anyone else, should rip a person's art apart just because it doesn't suit us. Keep in mind... that item is a personal part of that artist... ripping it apart means you're ripping that person apart. I say that unless that critic can do better, he or she ought to keep their useless, demeaning opinions to themselves. I do get tired of reading things like, "Her boobs are too big and unnnatural," or, "You're coloring is awful"... ya know, maybe that's what the original artist LIKES and maybe that's the way THEY want to do it. If a person doesn't like a particular piece of art, instead of blasting it they ought to try doing it themselves and see if they can do any better... chances are that person probably can't as they don't have that same creative desire or drive that compelled the original artist to produce their piece.

Many thanks to the people on this forum who have the courage to express themselves through their art! You add so much to this place.

I've always enjoyed criticism of my work and I agree that it has a place and that people should feel free to voice their opinions as long as it is in a creative way and not just 'you suck'. The picture I've attached is is on my Deviant Art page and has been since I opened a DevART account, it has had something like 25,000 views now and has generated a fair amount of comments, good, bad and downright ugly. I'm going to post the comments this image has received here so you can all see the type of feedback quicksand fetish art is getting outside of our forum. I'm not going to post the usernames of the people who left the comments but I will mark my responses.

1. Awesome pose . . . and her milkbags are also awesome.

2. It looks like you have cut her into the background=P have I right?

3. What was the point of her baring her giant boobs? "maybe, if I releas my ginormous tittys they will keep me afloat" lol

4. LOL. That made my day.

5. Wow thats hot.

6. Looks like someone bound or cuffed her hands behind her back, playing with her nipples a bit, then tossed her in to die.

7. nice but the point of the shirt being up and revealing her breast is what now? pointless nudity is bad. i feel it is a disgrace to art. sry for the brutal honesty but its my opinion and i feel i have a rite to voice it. bye

8. I AGREE.

indeX - 9. You're entitled to your opinion, just please don't voice it IN CAPS!

I admit it isn't for everyone but it's a fetish so you're not meant to 'get it'.

10. Being a man and thusly obsessed with boobs isn't a fetish.

indeX - 11. but being obsessed with boobs while the are sinking in quicksand is

12. If it's fetish, why is it on deviantart? It's not art.

indeX - 13. So a fetish cannot be art? That's a very small-minded view of the world.

14. :laughing: I see your point. Small-minded, perhaps. I just think art should be graceful and, well, artistic. Don't you think fetishes can stay in, like, porn books, where they belong? Isn't that why they're called "fetishes"?

indeX - 15. It's certainly something that I would say is open to debate.

I would say for an image to be part of a fetish does not imply that it has to be pornography. You can clearly see that many of the images on my deviantArt page are not pornographic in any way but that would still be considered 'fetish' images.

Consider some other fetishes that are perhaps a little easier to classify as art and erotic without falling into the pornographic. Take a black and white picture of a girl smoking a cigarette, now to most this image would be just a nice artistic photo but to some it would be a piece of erotic photography catering to the 'smoking fetish' crowd. Does the erotic implications of this image stop it being art because for a small percentage it has an arousing appeal?

Now I admit I am arguing the point on a picture of Lara Croft with her top pulled up, which is leaning a little more towards porn than my example... and when I say a little I know I mean a lot. But does this stop it being art? Can erotic art never be considered anything other than pornography?

I guess that is up to each individual to decide. In the end I think if you don't like it then you don't need to view it, that is the joy of a large collective such as devArt.

Anyways thanks for the comment anyway, it is good to hear from the people who don't like it as much as from the ones who do.

16. Dear god, that was an amazing speech you just performed. :XD: I must admit that you've swayed me. Now I will be more willing to give consideration to the idea that fetishes are not always dropped into the pornographic field. :nod:

17. well i agree with you the first time around, i can see some erotic art as just that art, but why lara that is a fetish indeed and most likely found on porn sites not art galleries, maybe a wet tshirt or a tightly fitted tshirt might've been more preferable than full upper nudity

18. oh your just voicing your opinion - its called artist expression - critique all you want - but you sound like this is a bad piece or you rather it not exist - believe me therez far worse - lighten up

19. must be cold in the jungle =P

20. you mean hot??lol,cuz you wear extra clothing when its cold,lol,just an observation,hehe

21. Read his comment in a few years

22. "must be cold in the jungle"??is it about her nipples dude,lol

23. Yes..

24. I like girl's nipples,that's random isn't it,lol

25. I like pointless nudity... It's not bad, why would it be?

26. Hmm well pointless nudity depends on the situation. Like if it's in a bedroom and some girl is topless that can make sense but being topless in a jungle yeah i don't understand that.

27. What's to understand,just look at the picture and get turned-on,lol

28. I don't Get why Her bare Breast are showing, I mean Was she Playing with her boobs and then oops fell in?? Jeez whats the point?:sleepy:

indeX - 29. Why does there need to be a point

30. LOl OK

31. "Lara Croft sinking to her doom in jungle quicksand."
-yeah, sure, but why is she naked???

32. you are the sickest person this picture is stupid get a life

indeX - 33. I'm sick because you don't understand me? Maybe you should get a life rather than giving out comments like that... just an idea.

34. you dont have to be so mean people CAN have different ideas on things

indeX - 35. I'm the one being mean? I believe you wrote "you are the sickest person this picture is stupid get a life"! Yes people can have different ideas on things, but because my idea differed from your own you decided to lash out by calling me sick, my picture stupid and telling me I should get a life... I think you came off worst in this exchange.

36. yeah i know i was just playin around and me and my friend thought of that

37. wtf is your problem guys its a god damn fetish pic... its not really supposed to make sense it is supposed to be appealing to others!

38. Boobies! :w00t:

39. This picture makes alot of sense: Some nasty evildoers caught Lara offguard, hogtied her and left her in this pit. But just killing wasn't enough so they put her in a more vulnerable position. While Lara was sinking slowly they made this picture as a proof (and put it on deviantart). So even Lara can be the damsel in distress.

Of course, Lara is the heroine and is laughing in the very end because...

Awesome picture! I'll fav this

40. You sure she is not just bathing in the quicksand. It seems her hands and butt might just be resting on the bottom of the quicksand. Even quicksand has a bottom. Another clue is her extended nipples. Great Pic by the way.

41. i dont like it,

it looks like the bg and the figure are drawn in two different mediums by two different artists

and that the quicksand is just artistic sleight of hand to avoid drawing typically "tricky" anatomy like hands...

and why did Lara's shirt ride up...cos the figure was traced from a photo of a glamour model? thats my guess at least.

indeX - 42. Well it is two different parts by two different artists. As my profile says I do photomanipulation, not original art, so I just use what I can get.

As to why her shirt is riding up... well women in quicksand is my fetish, so it is a sexual thing.

I appreciate the constructive feedback though, even though it isn't to your liking you took the time to say why it doesn't appeal to you unlike some others who just say 'you suck'. So thanks

43. thats ok, i saw the rest of your gallery after i commented and thats some weird stuff you're into, but thats just my opinion...but hey what ever floats your boat...so long as you're not going around throwing naked women into quicksand against their will more power to ya.

it takes diff'rent strokes to move the world...

indeX - 44. well..... maybe the odd naked lady *grin*

45. Great Pic! Hope you got AcidTesters okay when using his background that he drew though. (Sorry, I'm a big fan of AcidTesters work, I can spot his backgrounds. lol) Trust me man, I understand the fetish. You should check out my drawings that I recently posted and let me know what you think. I suck at drawing but still. lol. But yeah, anyway, Nice pic.

P.S. I also have a thing for Lara Croft. lol.

indeX - 46. the image was originally posted on the ds forum so AT knows I've been using some of his work and seemed to be ok about it, would have removed them if he had asked me too.

Cheers for the feedback, will be keeping an eye on your work

47. Lol. I was just messing with you. Just alittle humor to possibly brighten your day. Your a member of the ds forum? What's your screen name?

Thanx. I'll be watching whats new with you as well.

48. VILE.

indeX - 49. in your opinion.

why do people just post nasty comments? If you don't like it at least take the time to say what you don't like. Is it the content of the piece? Is it the actual art? What?

Vile? I think posting a one word comment without backing it up is vile.

Oh and if people take the time to read my profile they would see that this is a fetish piece, so not everyone is supposed to 'get it'.

God I hate people sometimes....

50. Quit the sexism and you might not get so many negative comments.

indeX - 51. Negative comments are fine, as long as they are not just attacks on me or my work.

If someone says they do not like it because they don't like the style, or the fact that her breasts are out, or that they find the quicksand sinking distasteful or anything, at least give a reason for the negative comment. Just saying 'vile' is about as productive as throwing a brick through my window.

Flaming helps no-one. Think before you leave a comment.

52. If you have the right to put up a work, they have the right to express how they don't like it. Free expression works both ways. Besides, your art shows your soul, it is connected to you. If your using your admittedly superb skills to draw pictures of the most busticated cartoon besides Jessiaca Rabbit, what does that say about you?
Think about it.

indeX - 53. As I keep trying to say in my comments I have absolutely NO problem with people saying they do not like my work, I have issue with people leaving comments that basically say 'this is crap' but do not explain why the person does not care for it.

Constructive criticism is most welcome, even sought out as it helps me learn why others do not like about the piece.

With regards to your other comment, what does my art say about my soul? Honestly I don't make pictures of women sinking in mud and quicksand to give others a view of my soul, I do it because it is my fetish and I find the images arousing. I guess I am appealing to my own basic animal instincts, lust and passion and raw sexuality.

54. I agree with you on the the contructive critisisum part. If you don't like it people tell him why. 'This is crap' merely shows a lack effort. If you hate it, put some passion in your work. "this is crap" don't cut it. As for the soul bit, you answered your own question. Call it your mind, your soul your brain ,your heart, your whatever, you are expressing something that is inside you, behind the eyes. Ones fetish is part of that, part of who you are. That is what I mean by art 'expressing the soul'.

55. The pic is awesome, its an art. Thats what I must say.
What I don't like is the nudity. Thats disgusting.

56. good way to attract attention if your sinking

57. "Just calm down! Keep your elbows behind your back and press them together!"

58. Do I spot some Julius Zimmerman work here?

Oh, and I apologize for the brainless "Boobies Sux!" crowd. They just don't seem to get that it's a FETISH work and that they should try to provide a reason behind their dislike to the picture instead of spouting off one-worded criticisms.

59. People are complaining that there is no point but there IS!

She forgot to put on a bra in the morning, she fell in, tried to wriggle herself out, her top crawled up, and WHAM! pointless nudety. I have tops that crawl up too, her boobs are so big though that the top can't go back down on its own.

oh and her hands are behind her back because she had an itch on her bottom.

i am SO smart when i had my coffee >3

60. that is rude to lara fans
it is so not right how you did that.

indeX - 61. Rude to fans? I am truly sorry if you feel I have been rude to you in some way. I am a fan of the Tomb Raider series of games and have beena fan of Miss Croft since the first game back on the Saturn (yes yes, I was a Saturn owner). This image is not meant to be an attack on Lara, it is just the combination of a quicksand fetish and the love of Lara.

62. ok.....
anyways.
became a fan of tomb raider ever since tomb raider 1... and i love tomb raider now even more.
maybe you should do a normal lara picture.
im not saying the others arent good but others would be nice too!

63. ill agree, a normal picture is always good, but to say its "rude" seems a little...strange
I mean, she isnt even real, ya know?

64. Frustraded furius Hate you!

indeX - 65. WTF?!!??

66. This is pornography I hate how Lara Croft is being ruined by poor hentai-fanboys.

67. ruined? wtf are you talking about
she was MADE for hentai fanboys, lol
you wanna talk about who is ruining lara croft, the people who keep deciding different developement teams should take over half way through projects.
or the people that thought that angelina jolie would be good. she wasnt bad, but an unknown woulda been better.

But hey, w/e

indeX - 68. I hate how the deviant art comment system is being ruined by people who are narrow minded. Breasts automatically equal pornography apparently, no room at all for eroticism in the world of art, it is either safe and clean and family fun all round or it is porn. It must be hellish to be trapped inside a mind like that, you see a naked mannequin in a store window and you are suddenly filled with rage, maybe even going as far as to spray paint something about how much you hate the naked human form ruining store window displays.

Now my own personal feelings on the subject of art Vs porn Vs eroticism Vs whatever aside I can see your point on a certain type of fan-boy taking a famous character, Lara Croft in this instance but it could just as easily have been Samus Arran, Jill Valentine or Duke Nukem (.... yeah I know), and stripping them naked or putting them in bondage gear or whatever. The thing is.... well Lara is a little bit of a special case because she was specifically designed to be titillating from day one. When Eidos, Core and Toby Guard first released Tomb Raider they had made Lara out to be a sex symbol to sell the game, they reasoned that games were mostly played by men who were mostly in the 12 - 24 age bracket, and what to men love? That's right, men love boobies. So of course it was inevitable that Lara was going to be drawn with her top off or kissing another girl or that porn stars were going to dress up like her before undressing and doing what they do.

I like Lara, and I don't just mean I find her attractive (or as attractive as a fictional character can be), I like that background that has grown up around her as the game series has moved on. I love Tomb Raider, maybe not all of them but I loved 1 and 2 and I have really enjoyed the more recent additions to the game. I also have a quicksand fetish so putting the two together, especially given Lara's tendency to be found in jungle settings, was a logical choice for me. Did she have to be topless in the picture? Well no, no she didn't. That was done purely for kicks, to indulge the lustful side of my psyche.

I know it is not everones cup of tea, I make no apologies for that, you can look at it and enjoy it or you can click to another part of the site. Just please, take a little more time to express your opinions.

Oh and this really isn't pornography. Go type Tomb Raider Porn into google and I am sure you will see how far from pornography this little piece of erotic art is.

69. So you mean it wasn't the ridiculously large bust:waist ratio that ruined this fictional character?

Or maybe the zillions of official art pieces of Lara posing in a bikini and/or topless?

Still, I hardly consider her ruined, the most recent three tomb raider games have all done pretty well.

I'm sure this bit of "pornography" won't really have any effect on the games' sales or reviews anyway.

------------

interesting reading huh?

Index, very interesting and a nice picture too. My criticism of your take on criticism would be that you are fortunate to get that much feedback of any kind. Even though a lot of it is crap you responded and encouraged viewers to provide something useful. If nothing else it does tell you how many people don't understand what a fetish interest or even art can be.

my take on criticism is pretty simple, I wont critique most of the new artwork, because i very rarely look at it. I personally realized a long time ago, that my personal admiration of artwork usually has to do with the older artist of the group, such as QA, acidtester, nessie and boggs. Unless one of these artist does something new i just ignore it, this goes with fakes as well, I know some people may take offense at this, but this has been my take for a while, videos are the same way, i have those producers whose videos i may look at and save and their are others i have never looked at regardless. I am sure i am not the only one who does this, but it is my take on the matter

claykid

index,
even those who posted the stupidiest comments on your work weren't the worst people at Deviantart. You didn't get real haters yet.

In fact, photomanipulations are not welcomed there. Many people say "you took some other's work without a permission". Even tracing is not welcomed. The worst thing, anybody can "report" about your work as "inappropriate", and very often DA administration just removes the work and informs you that your work was violating the rules, and you have no rights to complain. That is what happens too often.

And well, is it worth to comment those stupid posts of one rude word? You can just hide them.

On the other hand, the discussion about fetish, erotic art, and pornography is really interesting. You're really patient, and intelligent people react positively on your words. Great respect to you!