Crash at SFO

[schlamm]

AA dumped every last one of the MD-11's they had purchased rather quietly, unceremoniously and damn near overnight....
One cannot blame the DC-10 for the Chicago crash, some unapproved 'innovations' were applied for an engine change which was the root cause of the disaster, when this realization hit home two mechanics who had worked on the aircraft during that engine change killed themselves.

I still don't like the bird and I damn sure don't like the MD-11, there is just something about rolling over and bursting into flame that I don't like

[kham]

The DC-10's biggest flaw was the cargo door latching system; this was identified , by the NTSB after the Windsor mishap, but the fucking FAA allowed deferments to fixing the problem for "costs" and "availability" --- thus fast forward a year and you have the EXACT same mishap with Turkish Airlines. Only this time, the damage is worse, and the pilots can't control things. So you have 346 dead.

The Chicago crash was directly caused by American Airlines EXPLICITLY violating McD Maintainence procedures -- the bird had utterly nothing to do with it. But the low-information types weren't then and aren't now capable of comprehending that. So it basically killed the airplane.

But none of that shit means a damn for all the tea in China; they BONED the approach here, and they can spin all they like. So far the story has changed at least 3 times now, but it all ends up in the same fucked-up piloting that nearly splattered everyone off the rocks. A side point that they disengaged the autopilot and somehow also had no clue as to how the throttles function will be notable. CRM also might come up, since the "training" issue will be looked at. Oh, and they had a double crew on board, at least one of whom was in the cockpit jump seat

[Mynock]

Mynock, keep in mind that was time in that particular bird *only*, wasn't his first flight by any means and there was an instructor/captain in the cockpit with him. Somebody wasn't minding the store to be certain, but one cannot pin the relatively low number of hours in the 777 as the only cause. Flight is a lot like driving a vehicle with three dimensions to keep track of, once one has the basics the characteristics and quirks of a particular plane can be learned via experience.

My bad, missed the part where he was experienced on other aircraft. Had a feeling there had to be something wrong there.
This is looking more and more like pilot error though. Aircraft was fully functional according to the black boxes, weather/wind direction couldn't have been better.....hell of a thing to just miss the runway but shit happens I guess.

[schlamm]

Couldn't agree more, 32 knots IAS under minimum is a little hard to explain and a damn good reason for the bird to fall out of the sky the way it did.
Just a few seconds earlier on the falling out of the sky and the whole airplane rather than just the tail section would have been PSA on the runway.

The newbie 777 Captain has almost 10K hrs in the 737, just transitioned over to the big boy...and what a transition it was

[bbjohn]

Thanks for straightening me out about the DC-10 Chicago crash. I'd forgotten about the part about the maintenance being screwed up.

I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong. That's sometimes the only way I can learn things. I sometimes learn things I had thought for years were true weren't true at all. Like Will Rogers said, "It ain't what he doesn't know that worries me. It's what he knows for sure that just ain't so!"

I still stand by my claim that manufacturers have put products on the market that they should have known were unsafe. The cargo doors on the DC-10 should've been fixed following the Windsor accident and the Turkish Airlines disaster should not have happened.

As for th SFO crash, it's looking more and more to me like pilot error. That, of course, is nothing more than my opinion. We'll have to see what turns up in the official investigation. We may be surprised, we may not.

- Big Bad John

[schlamm]

I spent a good 30 years in the airline industry and heard most of the 'dirt' that sometimes never made the news...amazing how quiet things can be when "someone" doesn't want to scare the hell out of the flying public, isn't it?

For example: Eastern airlines AC#817, a B-727 flew a revenue flight with the flap actuator covers on the starboard wing held on with 'speed tape', no one would have ever known about it had one of them not come off when the flaps were lowered for landing in Atlanta. While the actuator cover itself coming off isn't a good thing, keep in mind that the 727 had all three engines back behind the wing...had number 3 sucked that thing in one would have gotten to witness an uncontained engine failure.

example 2: AA 727 flying from DFW to San Diego had the forward lavatory service point leaking 'blue juice' in flight, it was out of sight of the flight crew and passengers as it is just aft of the cockpit and considerably lower. The ice chunk eventually got big enough to break off at 33,000 above the Arizona desert and get carried over the wing by the airflow. Flight engineer noted that the readings for number 3 suddenly all went to zero, assumed it was a sending unit malfunction and never mentioned anything to ATC about an emergency or concern. Upon landing in San Diego the thrust reverser inop warning light illuminated for number 3 when attempting to brake after touchdown and the throttle lever was slack....
Well, that tends to happen when number 3 is no longer attached to the airplane, the shear bolts did their job when that chunk of ice was ingested and rather than tearing the airplane to pieces, they allowed the engine to break away and free fall into the Arizona desert just east of Yuma.

[bbjohn]

I spent a good 30 years in the airline industry and heard most of the 'dirt' that sometimes never made the news...amazing how quiet things can be when "someone" doesn't want to scare the hell out of the flying public, isn't it?

For example: Eastern airlines AC#817, a B-727 flew a revenue flight with the flap actuator covers on the starboard wing held on with 'speed tape', no one would have ever known about it had one of them not come off when the flaps were lowered for landing in Atlanta. While the actuator cover itself coming off isn't a good thing, keep in mind that the 727 had all three engines back behind the wing...had number 3 sucked that thing in one would have gotten to witness an uncontained engine failure.

example 2: AA 727 flying from DFW to San Diego had the forward lavatory service point leaking 'blue juice' in flight, it was out of sight of the flight crew and passengers as it is just aft of the cockpit and considerably lower. The ice chunk eventually got big enough to break off at 33,000 above the Arizona desert and get carried over the wing by the airflow. Flight engineer noted that the readings for number 3 suddenly all went to zero, assumed it was a sending unit malfunction and never mentioned anything to ATC about an emergency or concern. Upon landing in San Diego the thrust reverser inop warning light illuminated for number 3 when attempting to brake after touchdown and the throttle lever was slack....
Well, that tends to happen when number 3 is no longer attached to the airplane, the shear bolts did their job when that chunk of ice was ingested and rather than tearing the airplane to pieces, they allowed the engine to break away and free fall into the Arizona desert just east of Yuma.

I think I'll take the bus next time.

- Big Bad John

[kham]

Story change/mod #4....

In an interview with Korean Authorities the pilot flying reported that a flash of light occurred at 500 feet which temporarily blinded him, the NTSB confirmed that this was mentioned in their interview as a temporary event, too.

This seems to happen more often with foreign carriers, but gimme a fucking break. Also, the mains hit the rocks first, then the tail.

They REALLY need to send a thank-you letter to Mr. Boeing, and Jesus , not necessarily in that order

[schlamm]

could have been his career flashing before his eyes as it is damn sure over now.....

[Mynock]

Did you guys hear anything about the stewardesses having to actually ask the captain for PERMISSION to evacuate the aircraft?!?!?! Not saying this is true or not but some of us at work were talking about this and one guy swears up and down he heard one of the stewardesses say, in an on-camera interview, that the first thing she did when the plane stopped was go to the cockpit, knock on the door, and ask the captain if he would mind if everyone got out of the burning plane.........???????? If this is true mind=blown.