To the producers

[Fred588]

I would take issue with your facts. The majority of my scenes do have a story to them.

[wysvp]

Hmmm. Some good questions, and ones that I have thought about all these years as a producer (and before that as fan, too).

One of my favorite movie quicksand scenes is Tarzan's Hidden Jungle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8O_4CQIYn4), partly because of Vera Miles trek through the jungle, with the suspense building and building, and so much depending on her succeeding in her quest. That trek is a longer sequence than the actual quicksand sink. Much longer.

When I first started doing video work, I focused more on the stories; then I started having folks (i.e. customers and fans) tell me, "just get to the good parts..." (and similar phrases); others were upset that I was charging "for the whole movie" when "the good part was only 8 minutes of the 15 minutes" (or whatever amount the "story" took before the drama). So, I started cutting back.

Perhaps I have "swung" too much to the "only the good stuff" at the expense of the story. BUT, I want to hear from a lot more folks here (and elsewhere) that the full story matters, AND that you will help support that production cost (i.e. pay for the full story). I'm actually wrestling with this issue right now, editing "Girls Night Out" (starring Ludella Hahn, Erin Sennett and Xelle) - I've got all this footage of the girls dressing, talking, and preparing for their night out, plus the car breaking down and the walk through the woods, before...well, you can guess what happens. I'm saying to myself, "Do I keep it all in there, and charge for the whole, charge for just the sinking scenes, or make two videos, one I place on YouTube (or somewhere else), which will be the "pre-story" and then just upload the sinking scenes...?

I, personally, like stories - and I did one last year which will be released on DVD this June - has a full story, with pre- and post-story bits. But I did that because I wanted the story.

So, I will now sit back and hear what others think.

Mike

[dlodoski]

I'm pretty much with Mike on this.

Nothing sucks the wind out of shooting set-ups like a couple loud voices complaining about 'walking around'.

As for our 2013 season, this attitude was compounded by the major effort we put into creating large areas that look natural. Roughly half of our scenes were 'proof of visual concept' affairs that were meant to show off those areas. That, and shooting video on DSLR's for the first time severely limited the portability of the cameras.

I had already decided to do more portable story telling this year. So, hopefully I will find a happy medium.

[quagmire_uk]

I think people will only be unhappy with the storytelling/"walking around" stuff if you do a long scene, and the price reflects a long scene, but much of the video does not include quicksand.

If you you charge people for a 10 minute quicksand scene, but actually give them a 15 or 20 minute minute video with lots of storytelling, and don't charge extra for that aspect, then there's no reason for anyone to grumble. (Indeed, for those of us that DO like to see a story, it makes the scene amazing value for money.)

The only problem might be if certain clip sites automatically charge a price based on clip length. But if you have the ability to set the price to whatever you want, then no problem.

[Fred588]

No offense was taken. I simply felt that your facts were incorrect in my case.

Thanks for the great response guys!

Fred, I meant no disrespect and I apologize if it came off as such. If you read what I posted, I said there is story to what you guys did. I was just asking if you guys ever thought about doing longer setups and what have you. I'm not complaining, as i said, I have purchased and enjoyed many of your works. Just asking a question. I imagine you guys like polite feedback.

Keep up the good work guys, thanks!

[Fred588]

This may be different with quicksand scenes than other kinds of scenes but the cost of producing a scene (and therefore that of purchasing it) is really not affected by its length unless it is so long it must be completed across two filming sessions. We operate, and pay actresses, on the basis of a plan that assumes a certain number of sessions each day. Once the actress has gotten muddy, whether after three minutes or after thirty, then she has to get cleaned up, dried off, re-made-up, and rested (and probably fed) before the next session can begin.

I think people will only be unhappy with the storytelling/"walking around" stuff if you do a long scene, and the price reflects a long scene, but much of the video does not include quicksand.

If you you charge people for a 10 minute quicksand scene, but actually give them a 15 or 20 minute minute video with lots of storytelling, and don't charge extra for that aspect, then there's no reason for anyone to grumble. (Indeed, for those of us that DO like to see a story, it makes the scene amazing value for money.)

The only problem might be if certain clip sites automatically charge a price based on clip length. But if you have the ability to set the price to whatever you want, then no problem.

[dlodoski]

If the cost of the video isn't affected by length then those who prefer just sinking shouldn't be upset because they can simply skip to the sinking when they wish.

However, if extended setups DO cost more, then perhaps a "regular" version for people who prefer just sinking, and an uncut for the rest would be an idea. Again, I don't know how any of this affects the overall cost, so I'm just speculating.

The idea that scene pricing is based on length did not come from me, or the other producers (as far as I know). It was presumed and championed by the folks who were put off by long set-ups. This may have been fueled by clip sites that fix minimum prices based on scene length (a huge mistake IMO), but that doesn't apply to MPV scenes at Club MPV.

I don't want to get into the exact criteria that I use, but length is almost trivial to me. As Fred mentioned, a scene that involves submersions (an important criteria) for example, entails a fixed investment in time and resources. All scenes do, for that matter. Twenty or thirty minutes spent shooting dialogue and/or other set-up devices does not drive the price of any particular scene.

[wysvp]

Now, for me, length of time spent shooting with a model does, in general, affect me as a producer. In >90% of my work, I pay by the hour (some models allow me to pay by the half hour, but that is uncommon). So, if I spend time shooting a "pre-story" before the sink, then that will cost me money. If I can't recoup that money by charging for the full video (and only charging for the "sink" scene), then it might become financially unfeasible for me to do the pre-story.

This payment practice of mine (say, versus Fred or Dave) is likely because I do other fetishes in addition to quicksand - most other fetish producers pay "by the hour" and that is fairly standard. Given the rather unique aspect of quicksand sinking, other payment structures are possible. Quicksand is difficult to shoot - if it was easy, we'd probably have a lot more producers (like, say, bondage, which has loads of producers). Another aspect of quicksand work is the ability to shoot for a whole day - it allows the producer to hire a model at a set rate (usually with a few "bonus" pay options): the model can work for 1, 2, or even 3 days and earn a lot of $$ for that intense period of time. It would be rare, for instance, to do two-three full days of bondage shooting in a row, or glue/stuck, or vampire, or... Some of the models who work for me might comment on this aspect of fetish work from their experience.

And, as previously mentioned, some clips stores do limit what I can charge (e.g. clips4sale) - imposing minimums on a given video based on length. Not much I can do about that issue, alas.

Finally, I should add: economics do not govern all aspects of my role as a producer. This is not my "real job" - it is a "hobby turned part-time job"; and one major reason I got into being a producer was to work with very smart, talented and creative people (e.g. the models/actresses, MUAs, prop makers, fashion designers, etc.). So, I do make decisions frequently that have nothing to do with cost, return-on-investment, and "profits." Sometimes, I do a scene because it is challenging to shoot, or it is a creative story, or was written/conceptualized by one of my core-collaborators, etc. I ask myself, "How can I make this scene more unique, intense, erotic, fearful, etc." (whatever the scene is calling for in terms of emotions, impact, etc.). And sometimes I do a scene because it is fun!!

But, in the end, my fetish work as a producer must pay for itself - a Law, as stated to me by my wife!

Nice thread - happy to share.

Mike

[Antares]

I personally have an issue with unnecessary length to scenes. My internet connection sucks so I don't want to be downloading 10 mins of story as it takes around 45 mins to an hour (per scene) to download!